Speaker 1 0:09

Solar mini-grids have turned from small pilots to an electrification wave. We were there when mini-grid regulation was established, when financial transactions were closed. We saw new technology thrive and companies fail. This is where we tell the stories. This is where we discuss the future the mini-grid business Powered by Inensys.

Speaker 2 0:36

Hello, this is Nico. We are discussing how mini-grids can help solving the migration crisis. Today, I'm here with my dear friend and Inensos co-founder, jakob Schmidt-Reindahl. Hello, jakob. In the news, we are seeing that more and more right-wing parties are setting the scene regarding migration today, and that these parties are pushing towards closing borders and making sure that migrants cannot enter the European Union or the respective European countries.

Speaker 3 1:15

Yeah, exactly, I mean just here in Germany. It's only a few weeks ago that we observed the outcome of elections in three eastern federal states, where this trend that you just described could be seen. The right-wing party in Germany came out very strong, and it is a trend that we're seeing all across Europe. In fact, we've seen it in Austria recently, we've seen it in France, of course, also in Italy already some time back. So I would call it a certain shift to the right overall that we are witnessing there, which is very much influenced by this issue of migration.

Speaker 3 1:55

So many people are afraid of too many strangers coming into the country. Whether this fear is justified or not, it has to be taken seriously by the political parties and it needs to be discussed. However, what we are missing in this discussion, in my view I think, nico, you're sharing this is that this discussion is mostly focused around closing borders, pushing people back, rejecting them, instead of focusing much more on the question of how can we help fight the causes for people leaving their countries? How can we improve conditions that most people would actually want to stay in their countries instead of leaving them? Would you agree?

Speaker 2 2:38

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What we can summarize is that the welcome culture that the German Chancellor, angela Merkel, promoted in 2015 is over between the mini-grid business in Africa and this migration issue, or migration crisis than most people think and that is what we want to talk about in this podcast episode today say in Germany that migrants would only come due to the results of, or the impact of war, and one of these people saying that is, for example, the German, gerald Knauss, which is also advising the German government. I tend to disagree, jacob what is your opinion here?

Speaker 3 3:56

Yeah, same here. I mean, obviously we see migration because of wars in various regions, but that is by far not the only reason for people leaving their countries. Obviously, the effects of climate change are to be seen in many countries and are becoming more and more severe, so that the conditions for people in many countries in rural areas, become more and more harsh, so that for them the reason to stay and continue their typical lifestyle or the way of living becomes almost impossible, and therefore many people find a reason to maybe leave their villages, move to the cities, but then also, from there onwards, decide to move to Europe, where they're hoping for a better life, for very obvious reasons.

Speaker 2 4:41

Yeah, I've heard various stories from migrants who said that they have been sent by their family members because their families were in kind of distress. They found it hard to live their everyday life. As you explained, life becomes more difficult in rural areas, but even in semi-urban areas, in the slums around the large cities, and they sent their sons or their daughters sometimes to go and earn money from wherever possible, and in some cases the neighbors and the family members of a certain family. They collect money for that person to start the trip to, for example, europe. So there is a lot of pressure on this person. There are so many expectations and expectations are exorbitant that this person who was sent out to get money for the family will finally succeed. So now, if that doesn't happen in the city, then they actually proceed because the pressure is so high. They cannot return back to their family and say, hey, I failed, then this may be a reason for suicide after all. Hey, I failed, then this may be a reason for suicide after all. So they actually accept the hardest and harshest travel conditions and they risk their life to finally get to Northern Africa and then take the boat to Italy, to Europe.

Speaker 2 6:19

So that is one reason right, life becomes more difficult, but I believe that even the argument of people migrating mainly for reasons of war may hold true. Here is more drought due to climate change, more floods due to climate change, and not just in small pockets of a country, but probably covering whole regions across various countries, and this, after all, means that throughout these regions, throughout these countries, it's very likely that there will be a lack of food. There may be a lack of clean water, and wherever these types of resources become very scarce, it's relatively normal for people to then apply violence to survive, and just one example of this were the riots in Senegal some years back, when rice prices increased drastically and suddenly violence occurred, and this was just because of rising prices. People were not really starving at that time.

Speaker 3 7:36

Right, I mean, of course, whenever things that are essential to life and surviving of people become more scarce than the risk for violent actions and wars increase.

Speaker 3 7:49

And yeah, obviously the increasing changes in the climate which can be witnessed, obviously much, much stronger and much more severe in large parts of Africa than, for instance, here in our safe zone in Europe.

Speaker 3 8:01

Those changes are obvious and they make these effects stronger and stronger. So the reasons to leave their homes and their countries in the end will probably increase in the future and that clashes, as we discussed at the beginning of our discussion, clashes very much with the increasing fear of people in Europe, which forced political parties to switch more to right-wing positions and then simply close down borders. And again, that is not sustainable. The pressure will increase of people coming in and the pressure will increase on the inside of trying to push people out, and that is never a good scenario. So we want to discuss and we see opportunities, how we can at least, if even to a small extent, but at least somehow reduce these reasons to leave the countries, to increase livelihoods, to increase conditions that lives of people in African countries, for instance, where we're mostly focusing, can be better by fighting the causes of climate change, by where the climate change stroke this year in 2024.

Speaker 2 9:30

Right. So, after all, we have seen a significant drought across the whole southern African region. We have seen governments being afraid of not being able to support their population with food, to an extent where they finally said, okay, well, let's kill the elephants in Namibia and in Zimbabwe, because the elephants eat grass, they eat greens, they drink water and, of course, they can also deliver some meat. Even though this may have just been a very provocative step, it is a call for help, right, and I think we as Europeans, like as you and I, we should hear that call for help and make sure that we answer. And I think, as you just said, jacob, there is a solution here. You just said, jacob, there is a solution here. Another incident we have witnessed was the huge flood in the Chad region, where, for weeks, or even for a month, large areas were simply covered in mud and water, and similar things happened in northern Nigeria, for example. So it is not just one effect that we see here and there, but it's really effects that cover regions, that cover complete countries, that go across borders, that actually make life very difficult in these areas, and especially in rural areas. And this brings me to the first statement and the first understanding that I generated over the last years.

Speaker 2 11:16

Many of our listeners know that, jacob, you and I, we are in this field of rural electrification and rural industrialization for a long time. We are in this business for 20 years now and we've seen various African countries. We have spent a lot of time in rural African villages. We know how policymakers think about rural industrialization and rural electrification and we know how regulators think about that, how donors think about that. We've been working for World Bank and for United Nations and for many development banks and support organizations and we know all these perspectives right.

Speaker 2 11:59

What I learned is that over centuries basically, rural people in Africa could fall back on their subsistence farming in case of danger, in case of lack of food, in case of lack of money. They said if everything goes wrong and I cannot earn any money anymore with whatever I do in my rural village, then at least I have my little garden behind the house or I have my little garden somewhere in the fields. But through climate change, this subsistence life insurance that people rely on it has become an illusion, because floods and droughts can easily destroy even the small gardens, so that after all, this life insurance that people think they still have may just disappear.

Speaker 3 12:59

Right, and obviously we are discussing these things based on our personal experiences over all these years. We're not claiming that we are the experts for the reasons for migration we have not lived ourselves in those villages, but we have at least, as you said, spent significant time while developing our mini-grid projects and working in the villages and working with the people in the villages, and we have experience through our direct encounters and exchanges. And what we've seen and what we've witnessed and what you just described, I mean, is definitely I would call it in my own words a lifestyle that people are used to, of course, want to live in their villages and they want to harvest their fields and are very proud of their lives and of their villages. At the same time, there's a strong urge to also benefit from the modern developments in terms of, of course, getting access to electricity, with all the benefits, starting from switching on lights when it's dark, switching on radio television, all the way to running machines, all the things that make life much easier but also be connected to the world through television, but also the internet. And I mean that's something we've seen with our own eyes, right, that this is something that actually makes people want to stay in their villages and want to move back, even. I mean, I think back of our own pilot project in senegal back in 2009, 2010, when we, for the first time for us, were in the amazing position to switch on the electricity in the village and see what this does to the entire community and to then see immediately people move back to the village, build houses and actually turn around this, what we call drift to the cities.

Speaker 3 15:15

People now say now I have no reason even young people no reason to leave my village anymore.

Speaker 3 15:21

I can live in the village, live that life that you described, have their own fields that provides enough food, but also be on the internet and even potentially work online and have all the other benefits of electricity city. So that personal experience that we have from our own projects gives us this strong belief that we can help create conditions that actually really have an impact on this migration issue, that there's less reason to leave those places. But it's not only about bringing power and switching on light and switching on a television, right, I mean, it's also about what you described that it becomes more and more difficult to even work on the fields because climate change is making it sometimes very difficult or even impossible. So the need to go beyond just continuing their life and maybe just switching on lights is also there. Hence rural industrialization. So solutions need to be created that actually create new jobs, which again is possible through the provision of electricity as a basis, but then also through making use of natural resources that are existing in many, many, many places.

Speaker 2 16:35

Yes, new jobs in rural areas are definitely required. People would actually love to be employed by a large company, for example, get a regular and stable income, a good salary that supports their living, that they can rely on, right. All these kind of things do not exist in rural areas In principle. In rural areas, most of the people are forced to become entrepreneurs and not everyone is an entrepreneur and feels and lives this entrepreneurial spirit. Everyone is like us and, coming back to your disclaimer, thank you for that. We are both Europeans, as everyone knows.

Speaker 2 17:23

We are taking here today a very much European perspective and we're trying to bring in our African experience and we are happy to discuss further all the ideas that we are presenting today and all the concepts that we're presenting today in future episodes and also through emails and LinkedIn and any communication channels that you can reach us on this information you can find in the show notes.

Speaker 2 17:54

Good, you said that rural job creation may be a road to success, may be a solution to overcoming the risk of climate change, to providing resilience against climate change, and I fully agree. As soon as people can earn an income the stable income they do not 100% rely on subsistence farming and if the payment is good enough, they can maybe even save some money and build some financial reserves which make them even more resilient. And now, if you look at, why would somebody in a rural village need money? Because there are no products there anyway, other than Coca-Cola and cigarettes, maybe. But I believe that as soon as people in rural villages have money to spend, the products will find their way to the villages, and that is what we have seen also in some instances.

Speaker 3 18:53

Jacob, I was going to say it's not only a belief. I think we have seen many, many cases of exactly that happening. As soon as you bring electricity on, sometimes even sometime before that, in anticipation of that, all of a sudden you see shops are automatically equipped in a much different way as soon as there's more money circling within that small village economy and it's an immediate effect. I think we've seen it many times.

Speaker 2 19:19

Yeah, yeah, and it's an immediate effect. I think we've seen it many times. Yeah, yeah, I think the supply of equipment, of goods, will not stop there, but it will also comprise foodstuff wherever needed, Because where there is money and where there is demand and people willing and able to pay for food, then food will also find its way to the villages, and that will, after all, create resilience against climate change-related shocks. Right, so we've been coming from reliable jobs, so now we need to think about how can we create reliable, long-term employments of rural people in their rural areas following electrification. And that is where we have, of course, our rural industrialization concept, and some of you may have listened to the episode on rural industrialization, where several mini-grid companies from different African countries have introduced their view on rural electrification. All these companies are still in an advanced experimental stage and some of them like look at Mandoulis, for example have already found their way towards profitability using rural industrialization. But I foresee rural industrialization rather coming from a different sector, not from the mini-grid companies themselves. Mini-grid companies can, of course, play an important role, but what I really foresee is that, sooner or later, industries from Africa existing industries may it be food processing, may it be timber, may it be livestock, may it be mining From these industries.

Speaker 2 21:14

There are large companies existing in Africa. These industrial processors, these companies usually do not invest into rural areas voluntarily, even though many of them receive and procure their raw materials, their resources that they need for producing their products from rural areas. And what we're seeing is that in some cases these resources are being put on trucks, being shipped over hundreds and in some cases even thousand kilometers to a central production facility where they arrive in well, medium, good conditions and then they get processed. Some villages are simply too far away to be connected to that network, so they cannot supply any goods to these kinds of industries, even though they may have excellent natural resources to produce raw products for these industries, but they are still too far away to be connected to that logistic system.

Speaker 2 22:43

Study under the African Development Bank's Green Mini Grid Help Desk that, under certain conditions, it may be very profitable for these processing companies, these large industrial processing companies, to decentralize their processing value chain and do some pre-processing in rural areas. And that is where we link back to the employment and jobs that you've been talking about earlier, Jacob, and that is where I say if these companies embrace the opportunities that are out there for rural pre-processing of goods. They could potentially significantly increase their margins through the reduction of transport costs, through the improvement and the preservation of goods on site and improvement of product quality through local processing. And we can later talk about some examples of where this is already happening and where companies are already trying this partly successfully, partly in early experimental stages, and then from there we can go on discussing how this could potentially be deployed in larger scale and more often.

Speaker 3 23:59

Right. But I mean the question arises why this is not happening, right? I mean, of course there's one obvious reason, and that again is now our link to the mini-grid business that we're promoting is the existence of electricity on site. Of course you cannot process anything if there's no electricity, of electricity on site, of course you cannot process anything if there's no electricity. And if us or other companies develop mini grid projects, now you have a different situation. You have electricity on the ground. That now changes everything for a processing company to set up facilities using the electricity that's provided. But it's probably by far not the only bottleneck, right? I mean, there's definitely incentives that governments can provide national governments, african governments.

Speaker 2 24:46

Before going there, I would just discuss briefly why companies are not investing yet. Electricity is just one aspect, but there are other aspects that need to be considered here. We have had talks with industrial companies in Nigeria, for example, sierra Leone. The feedback that we received was well. Decentralizing processing increases the complexity of doing business in Africa drastically, and what people say is that doing business in Africa is already complex enough. Why would I make it artificially more complex than it needs to be?

Speaker 2 25:31

Let everyone bring their raw products to my central facility and I process it here, and then I have everything under control. I can see my workers on a daily basis, I can shake hands with them, I can look them in the eyes and ask them hey, why have you not performed yesterday? Can you do better today, like these kind of things? Right, all the staff handling is easier if you do it at a central place. The logistics the on-site logistics become easier if you do it at a central place. The logistics, the on-site logistics, become easier if you do it on a central place. So that is the feedback we actually receive. But well, I think conditions have changed over the last few years. Nowadays, in many parts of rural Africa, you do have internet connectivity, if not through the telecom networks, then at least through satellite communication.

Speaker 3 26:29

Definitely better than in rural areas in Germany, for sure.

Speaker 2 26:33

Maybe even that. And this relatively reliable internet connectivity brings along opportunities that industries need to embrace technologies and so on to finally make decentralized rural processing of goods worthwhile and profitable, because the complexity can be managed. I'm not saying that the complexity gets reduced, but the complexity can be managed using digital tools. And well, we have tried this, jacob, right, we have tried this in Tanzania with the tilapia business. Many people know that I've talked about it many times in this podcast. We collected tilapia fish, deep froze it and then brought the deep frozen fish to Dar es Salaam, where formerly the fish was coming from China, and finally the national resources of fish finally reached the largest fish consumption market in Dar es Salaam, and this was a win-win-win situation. And our subsidiary, jumeme in Tanzania took the coordinating role of that business. And well, finally, the fishermen and the mini-grid company Jumeme and the offtaker in Dar es Salaam made good business out of this.

Speaker 3 28:10

So now, and we're talking about islands in Lake Victoria for those who are not familiar yes, exactly.

Speaker 2 28:16

So then we started off on a real agricultural value chain with chili and vanilla, and we're currently setting up a block farming scheme. We are thinking of adding an outgrower scheme to it and bring these goods, processed on site, dried right with heat pump dryers and solar electricity, to international markets like Europe and other markets, and this is ongoing and it looks promising, and whoever is coming to Uganda is welcome to come and see what we are doing in this village in Zambia, with the rural industrialization around the farming value chain.

Speaker 3 29:03

Which is the name of a village in Uganda, not to be mistaken with the country.

Speaker 2 29:08

Exactly. Come to Zambia and see what we're doing there. Good so. And then there are others like look at Mandoulis, who are producing pall, various value chains. So there are companies active and I think it's time to have a close look at these examples and replicate those, to finally grow them and scale them up and roll them out.

Speaker 3 29:44

So the question is again why do these industries not expand to the rural areas? We discussed the existence of electricity as a obviously a very important basis that companies need to process products, but that's not the only thing. Right, electricity on its own will not change everything, I mean, and of course, as discussed, digitization is a big game changer. But what else are the bottlenecks that these industries see that keeps them from going deeper into these rural areas?

Speaker 2 30:18

Yeah, probably most companies are just too afraid to take the investment into something that they cannot guarantee will be a success later on. And well, this situation, this case you see in many countries, in Europe, in the US, as well as in Africa. And what do governments do to overcome the situation? They provide incentives. If you want companies to do something that benefits the state, that benefits the country, then this requires some incentives, and these incentives are basically always the same. It can be incentives like tax incentives, tax holidays, it can be streamlining bureaucratic processes, streamlining bureaucratic processes, and it can also be subsidies or low interest loans, grants, funding structures to incentivize industrial companies to move parts of their processing into rural areas. Yeah, well, and this is, I think, what governments in Africa need to think about.

Speaker 3 31:32

Exactly and overall, creating what we like to call business enabling frameworks.

Speaker 3 31:39

We started off by discussing the fact that electricity obviously is needed not only for development of the communities but also for rural industrialization.

Speaker 3 31:48

But in order to provide electricity, the private sector requires good frameworks, and that's already where it starts right For a government to set up frameworks, regulations and the other incentives that you mentioned already for the rural electrification sector is a very important start, but it goes beyond that.

Speaker 3 32:10

As you just explained, sector is a very important start, but it goes beyond that. As you just explained, processing companies could be incentivized to take these steps that we're right now discussing to set up processing plants in deep rural areas, because they are receiving, especially for the initial ones, for the initial projects, for the pilots even high levels of subsidization, so the risk is very much reduced. But then also, as you said, taxes are reduced for the initial phases, for instance, and whatever is required in terms of licensing, permits, things they need in that process, which, as we know from our own experience, can be a huge hurdle for investors. When you enter into a new market and then you realize you are waiting for permits for a year or several years even, how do you get going with these kind of hurdles? So, to anticipate that, to make sure frameworks are streamlined so that these kind of activities are fostered and companies are incentivized to take these steps, all these would be things that governments can take proactively to open these doors, to open doors to making use of these potentials.

Speaker 2 33:24

Yes and well, we are linking to existing calls for rural industrialization. Think of the Kenyan president, william Rucho. He just recently, in a speech, called for rural industrialization. Think of the Nigerian president, bola Tinubu, who is not the first president in Nigeria who is calling for more rural industrialization in Nigeria. And well, there are governments and presidents and policymakers all across the continent calling for industrialization, and especially also rural industrialization. In Uganda, in Ethiopia, in Zambia, in Zimbabwe, everywhere, everywhere you go, everywhere you look at, people are calling for industrialization, because industrialization is the way towards more economic resilience, more economic growth, and embracing rural areas is what people and policymakers also keep in mind.

Speaker 2 34:31

So now, why is it not happening? Right, because so far people didn't know how to bring together the open ends. People said, okay, well, how can we send industry into rural areas? Of course we could set up tax incentives, subsidies and these kind of programs, but they would still not go, because they don't want to run diesel generators all the time. Bring the diesel fuel to these rural areas, manage all these complexities that we have talked about before. They wouldn't just do it.

Speaker 2 35:03

But that requirement has changed over the last I would say, six, seven years, because nowadays, today, you can find micro-utilities, mini-grid companies, in almost all African countries and these micro-utilities are just waiting for industries to finally go into rural areas and set up their factories there, because that would finally be the anchor customers that will make these micro utilities financially viable and sustainable and ready for growth and ready for more rollouts of rural electrification projects.

Speaker 2 35:51

And well, if you talk to these mini-grid companies, many of them nowadays are also willing and able to closely collaborate with industrial companies and are willing and able to share resources, to share human resources, to reduce travel costs, to make sure that they use their on-site staff wisely and in a collaborative manner with industry players who are new to the area, and probably even help these industry players finding suppliers in these rural areas smallholder farmers, suppliers, miners, individual people who go into the mines and bring the ore. The mini-grid companies can play a central role here in coordinating this, in providing access not only to electricity but also to people and establishing the networks required to make this work right.

Speaker 3 36:58

So basically all the ingredients are there, right, all the all the things that are needed are there. Yes, they are. And that makes me just go back a little bit to the beginning of the discussion, when you said there's this call for help more or less, where I would say, indeed, but it's. I mean we can talk about also the role Europe can take now in this. But having discussed now all the things that are already in place, a call for help is much more a call to themselves. I mean, it's not about us coming there and, you know, helping the poor Africans. Those times have passed and that concept never worked, obviously.

Speaker 3 37:42

But African countries can help themselves. Everything is there. They have the potentials, they have the industries, they have the mini-wit companies by now, and the governments also know more or less, as you pointed out, what is needed. Sometimes it's just a little, maybe a little push, maybe some expert input to connect some dots here and there and of course, still investment that can come in from external sources. That also plays an important role. But more or less it's not about Africa asking for help. It's Africa that can help itself, at least in that context of what we're discussing now, where everything is there and now the time is right to get this rural industrialization let's call it a market off the ground, and there are certain things that European governments, european companies can contribute. For instance, I mean, there's still technologies that might come from external partners, there's expertise that can be brought in and, as I mentioned already, investment that contribute, yeah, contribute or benefit from, rather, I guess right exactly both.

Speaker 2 38:58

Um, after all, I think in this rural industrialization scenario, we as the europeans are allowed to consider af Africa as a market because there will be demand for machines, for potentially highly automated machines, potentially highly robust machines, because the provision and the supply of spare parts is a challenge, right, so probably rather robust machines will be demanded.

Speaker 2 39:31

There will be demand for logistic solutions, there will be demands for IT solutions, there will be demand for digitization, as we discussed before, for fintech solutions. How do you pay the local suppliers? How do you automate the process? How do you avoid fraud? In this case, all these kinds of things are creating opportunities for African companies, for smart African entrepreneurs, for tech companies from Africa, but also for tech companies internationally. And well, we both being Germans, I believe that Germany has a role to play here, because in Germany we have the so-called Mittelstand, and Mittelstand means medium-sized companies, mainly family-owned and distributed all across Germany, especially in rural areas, and we know what we're talking about, right, we in Germany, we know how to produce in rural areas and how to supply goods to other industrial players, and this is knowledge that we can export, that we are experts in like, where we have more than 100 years of expertise build up and yeah, I think we should consider this an opportunity in the markets.

Speaker 3 40:55

Indeed, and when you say consider Africa as a market, means not the way we used to do it in the past, as a market to just take out resources and potentially sell weapons to regimes that are conducting wars, but to actually consider African players, equal business partners, and to consider these markets opportunities at eye level where now real business can be made back and forth.

Speaker 2 41:28

Yeah, and that is a change Exactly, and this fairness in trades is definitely also a task to be solved by both African governments and international or European governments. The African governments must, of course, make sure that they set up laws that prevent any exploitation of rural workers. These laws must be established and they must be solid enough to finally be pushed through. And, at the same time, in Europe, there has been the movement around the value chain acts, which has started in various countries in France and in the UK and then in Germany and had made it up to the European Commission, and now the European Commission is still discussing on how to roll this out across the European continent, basically the largest markets in the world. But after all, we are seeing some pushback on this initiative of the value chain acts, and that is because Europe is currently going and especially Germany and some other countries are currently going through a recession and this law is being perceived as creating additional hurdles, adding to the already existing bureaucracy and increases, of course, reporting efforts and so on. But now I believe we can, given that there are these rural industrialization opportunities out there in rural Africa, we should look at this movement of the value chain acts from a different perspective. On the one hand, as we said before, where there is electricity and where there is rural processing and professional companies and where there is connection to the internet, it's relatively easy to get accurate data right from the supplier of the original product. So that makes it very easy to track all the value chain down from the smallholder farmer, from the farmer, from the fisherman, from the miner in rural Africa, all the way to the cobalt ending up in the battery of a European car or similar. It's relatively easy to track this as you have digitization and electricity available in these rural areas.

Speaker 2 44:05

On the other hand, we can also look into how this act, the Value Chain Act, can be tweaked a little bit in its next version and potentially get some incentives for businesses who are willing to invest into rural industrialization and decentralizing production through, for example, tax incentives in Germany, tax incentives in Europe through, for example, subsidies or low-interest loans for the investments that these companies need to make to decentralize their production in rural Africa or even beyond, right In rural Asian countries or South American countries.

Speaker 2 44:56

These acts are not limited to one continent. So after all, I believe if we take that perspective, we can create a win-win situation after all, where not only the rural people in Africa can achieve more resilience against climate change, where not only the African industry working with rural areas and in rural areas and working with rural population, together with micro utilities, which are already existing and waiting for this kind of business opportunity and then finally, like these industry, increase their margins and potentially increase their profits but also European companies and industrial players who are importing goods from Africa may benefit because there will be more transparency, there will be potentially even cheaper products coming into Europe I don't know and on the other side, there will be also players who will be able to supply machines into Africa to implement rural industrialization. I guess this is a win-win-win situation that we just need to trigger off and then finally roll out.

Speaker 3 46:12

Yeah, and not to mention and now to link this back to the title of this episode after all also seeing a positive impact on the so-called migration issue.

Speaker 3 46:23

I mean, if we create reasons for people to not leave, if we create conditions that make people want to stay and want to live their lives in their countries and develop their communities and so on and so forth, then, at least to a certain extent, there will be less people moving or trying to get into Europe for the reasons that we discussed, and that might then also have an effect also on the European situation, where, when there's less push from the outside into Europe, then there might be less reason for this shift to the right politically.

Speaker 3 47:02

And therefore our work on the ground, our and many other players, companies and organizations that work in this field, companies and organizations that work in this field that are working every day to create better conditions for rural development, to develop projects and so on and so forth. That is all interlinked closely and therefore I think my view and I I think you're sharing this we are seeing this closely interlinked to the everyday politics and developments even in Europe. Potentially one could also translate that to the situation in the US. That is interlinked and we're convinced this will have an effect if we are successful on the ground and therefore create a probably triple win situation, as you just described, for all parties involved.

Perspectives on Mini-Grid Business Expansion

Speaker 2 47:51

Probably a triple win situation, as you just described, for all parties involved. And last but not least, we could ask the question on who finances this all, and we could just point to some existing instruments from climate finance. A few weeks ago, the UN Assembly agreed to rearrange the financing of adaptation measures in countries that are especially hit by climate impact, and many African countries would probably belong to that group. So therefore, there is an opportunity for climate adaptation finance. There's not just the GCF. There are national instruments from various countries, there are existing funds by large development banks that could be tapped into and, as we explained, jacob, european governments, for example, should have an interest in fostering rural industrialization and patrols on the Mediterranean Sea and anything that prevents migrants to move into the European Union. Fully agree. Yes, jacob, that was a good discussion. I believe this time we had talked from a European perspective. Next time, let's bring in some Africans to also represent the African perspective.

Speaker 3 49:34

Exactly. I think, in addition to the experiences we have shared, that we have gathered over the two decades now of working in this field that we've seen firsthand, obviously it would be very interesting also to bring in perspectives of co-workers that actually know how it is to live in the communities, how it is to live without electricity, what happens when electricity arrives, what the reasons really are for people to leave, which we can only assume from the outside. But let's continue the discussion together with voices that can actually share really the experience of the situations we have described today, and then we can take it further.

Speaker 2 50:14

Yeah, there's definitely more to be discussed. Thanks, Jacob.

Speaker 1 50:17

Thank you. Talk to you soon. This episode of the mini-grid business has been brought to you by Enensis, your one-stop shop for sustainable mini-grids. For more information on how to make mini grids work, visit our website, enensiscom, or contact us through the links in the show notes. The mini grid business powered by Enensis.